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Scrobble an internet radio station?

 

  • Scrobble an internet radio station?

    I noticed that the iScrobbler plugin for iTunes on Mac doesn't report any of the tracks I listen to in iTunes if they are from an internet radio station (say, Groove Salad for instance).

    Is there any way to fix this?

    Thanks!
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  • Internet radio is disabled by default no matter what scrobbler tool you use. Currently the staff doesn't think the included tags on internet radio is trustworthy enough to open the floodgates.
    All comments reflect the views of the poster and not of last.fm or it's management.

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  • Wow - that is really too bad. I guess I really have to question the logic in this decision since it is not consistent across the board. Case in point, why prevent radio stations, yet report on podcasts? I would much rather have the opposite, since I listen to music radio, yet not music podcasts.

    Ultimately, imposing a limitation like this seems shortsighted. I believe it should be left up to the user to allow reporting on what they choose. I would urge the staff to consider this.
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  • A podcast is in most cases a MP3 that you download and listen at teh moment you decide to listen to it.
    The fact that it is a MP3 makes that you have an ID3-tag that can be read and altered.
    Radio-streams are (basicly) beyond your control. In order for them to scrobble correct you have to trust the party streaming your stream to have their tags 100% correct. And face it, that is not the case. Add to that that you have no control over these tags, you have the reason why Last.Fm is not opening the gates for radio-streams.

    I see no flaws in that desicion ;)
    Remember to say "thank you" for the things you haven't had
    System Status (indication) - Problems scrobbling FAQ - The Last.FM FAQ
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  • I couldn't disagree more.

    ID3 tags are not 100% either, nor are they likely to be edited by end users, especially on consumable podcasts like news. Colleges dishing out MP3s for lectures get reported also, simply because they have an ID3 tag? What results is a FAR from 100% reporting on *music* tastes, all because last.fm wants to ensure 100% accuracy?

    Has anyone ever looked at CDDB? I bet most people rely on it for auto-tagging their imported CDs. It is not 100%, and often has multiple entries for a single album. People not paying close attention will have errors creeping in, again not 100%, yet that is acceptable. Really, last.fm is relying on the accuracy of the end user that their library is correct. If you trust the end user to make a decision about an ID3 tag (which many users probably don't even understand, as digital music becomes more generally accepted), then why not trust their decision that a radio station is accurate? Or trust their decision to turn off podcasts reporting?

    Perhaps my solution is not the best, but I was hoping to open some discussion on it. The current solution is a start, but has a long way to go and leaves many holes for error - again, I emphasize, error means not 100% as was cited above as reasons for doing/not doing things.




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  • Would love Internet radio scrobbled

    I absolutely agree with nateswart. I would love to have my Internet radio scrobbled. Shouldn't it be up to me, as the user, whether I trust a radio station's tags enough to scrobble it or not?
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  • Yes, Last.Fm is relying on the user to have and use clean tags in their library. And I think quite a number of people are in some degree aware of that.
    I like to have tracks scrobbled to the correct artist. Every new rip (either by myself or from the internet) I add to my collection is first checked and corrected... with help from CDDB, true, but that is not the Holy Grail in tagging... Only after my tags are correct, I add the album to my collection.
    I do the same with the few podcasts I listen. (And there is always the option to exclude your podcast and audiobook-directories from scrobbling ;))

    You might even have noticed that there are nummerous artists here with locked wikis and an artistpicture that urges you to check your tags.
    There are people here that do not really care about their tags... resulting in charts with loads of "track 01", "track 02" etcetera. I myself wouldn't want that... If only because it screws my recommendations. But that is a choice by that user. Their tags are crap and they choose not to correct them. And (despite what you think, or claim) correcting tags is fairly easy. There are plenty (free) programs to help you. A link is provided in most locked non-artist wikis.

    There is no way to correct radio-tags.

    And I think, personnaly, that the desicion ought to be made by the owner of the database you are filling... not by the one filling the database. The idea is to gather clean data, after all ;)
    Remember to say "thank you" for the things you haven't had
    System Status (indication) - Problems scrobbling FAQ - The Last.FM FAQ
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  • I never claimed that editing tags was hard. I am rather particular about my tags, and fully understand what ID3 tags are. My point was that as digital music becomes more popular the number of people who don't understand (or care) is going to increase. I think you're actually making my point for me, by pointing out some people either don't care, or don't know how to edit tags since their accounts are filled with track01, track02, etc.

    I have to ask again, why is there a double standard though? You claim that it should be up to the database owner not the user, yet you also claim that people are filling up the database with track01, track02 and that this is up to the user? How is that better? You claim there that it is a user choice and that you personally wouldn't want that. I agree - I wouldn't want that either - but I also don't want my supposedly accurate music listening trends being "polluted" with Rocketboom, college lectures. I've got back and checked, and in iScrobbler 1.5.1 there is no option for ignoring a directory or podcasts.

    There may be a core miscommunication here where I am just failing to see a consistent logic between "we want to gather clean accurate data, and it's our database" and "it's up to the user to edit tags and if they don't and their account is filled with garbage then that's their issue". Those two ideas are not in harmony with each other. Why would it not be my prerogative if I didn't mind bad radio tags (or noticed that the stations I listened to were 99-100% accurate)? According to your logic stated above, it would be completely ok for me to fill your database with track01, track02, but not tags from radio stations that I noticed were 99% accurate.

    Now, the point about not being able to edit improper radio tags makes sense. That portion actually raises the question (or feature request) of being able to remove tracks from my history. What if I forgot to pause the reporting? Or I noticed a problem with a tag after it was already reported? The only option currently is erase my entire data, right (that I've seen)?

    Don't get me wrong from the larger picture. I have issues with this small item, but the overall project/idea is pretty cool. I'm hoping it will help me find new artists, share my tastes with friends, etc. I am just hoping for more accurate data, as it sounds is the goal overall.
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  • Quick update, I went back and looked (since I had seen two download options from last.fm). I was using iScrobbler which did not have that option. The last.fm/as app did, and I've turned off podcasts - from a UI/workflow perspective, this was very cumbersome to do (again, as above, I know how to do it now, but from a usability for the masses perspective ... ).

    I still long for more accurate music reporting, though. Especially since so much of my day is spent with online radio.
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  • The problem I have, is that I want to stream music from my home pc to my work pc. That way I dont have to carry around a hard drive all the time - and can access my music from wherever I am. And I think that this is the way of the future :) more and more people will start streaming their music from one source.
    Setting up that streaming system is easy, but I obviously would want it to be scrobbled.
    And since its my private collection, everything is tagged (nearly obsessively ;)).
    I would really appreciate a solution for that.
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    • rstcyr said...
    • User
    • 2 Nov 2007, 16:26
    My 2 cents:

    I've just started using last.fm, and I consider it a design flaw to not allow internet radio stations. I listen to soma.fm, shoutcast, XM via Winamp... all of them use complete tagging of artist & title (sometimes album). I have never noticed any gaps or gross errors. Most online radio stations are either professional/commercially-run, or run by dedicated music fans who would be just the anal types to ensure the accuracy of proper tagging for their listeners.

    80% of my PC listening is to online stations, which at the moment will not show on "What I'm listening to". Not much of a point for me to use last.fm, then. Why force me to look elsewhere for competing social music sites?

    Cheers
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  • rstcyr said:
    80% of my PC listening is to online stations, which at the moment will not show on "What I'm listening to". Not much of a point for me to use last.fm, then. Why force me to look elsewhere for competing social music sites?

    Cheers
    Me too. :)

    But the internet streaming station I listen to is last.fm so it is scrobbled.
    Plus I can make my own radio stations instead of selecting from 40 preconfigured ones.
    Including my own top tracks radio (nothing but the best).
    And I made a "Greatest Songs" radio that is the best of the best.
    Plus I can listen to the radios from other people like we're all DJs.
    And I can put my radio link in any UBB, html site where others with last.fm can just click and listen (like above).
    And my personal radio grows as I listen to music.
    And a special radio plays recommendations based off my playing habits.
    And it only costs $3 a month (I'm not sure what XM costs).
    Personalized radio is definitely the way to go.

    And the staff has mentioned before wanting to bring internet radio and other formats into the fold but like I said before they just don't "think the included tags on internet radio is trustworthy enough to open the floodgates."
    All comments reflect the views of the poster and not of last.fm or it's management.

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    • Llan said...
    • User
    • 5 Nov 2007, 18:00
    I want to use gnump3d to stream music from my desktop PC e.g. to my laptop in the next room. If I do this, I can't scrobble the tracks, which is not understandable.
    I'm rehashing previous posts, but the argument "You can't rely on a radio station for correct tags" is useless. You can't rely on user-submitted tagging as well. I often find errors in the tags of ripped CDs. And besides that, I can just retag every song I have and submit it any way I want.
    There really really is no point why radio streams with tags should not be submittable.

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  • The staff said no, that's why.
    All comments reflect the views of the poster and not of last.fm or it's management.

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  • > The staff said no, that's why.

    Hehe, that's why we're asking them to reconsider :P
    Remembers me on my mother "because I tell you, thats why".

    I undestand the radio reason. But I think we've got the stronger argument: last.fm should be aware that streaming of ones own content is gonna become more and more common. There is great hardware out there for streaming from one room to the other - why having the data twice? The same for streaming from a home-server to any station (work, vacation) - just makes a lot of sense, especially since good connections can be found just about everywhere.
    And I'm sure that sooner or later you'll need no storage on your I-pod either.
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  • Maybe a user poll should decide on this? Last.fm is a social network, so let the users decide.

    I personally also sometimes listen to internet radio streams and I would like to see these songs included in my last.fm profile. Because only then I get an accurate profile, because I listen to streams which I don't own on MP3's. This makes that some music-genres are not included in my profile for the moment.
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    • Llan said...
    • User
    • 6 Nov 2007, 10:41
    Kerensky97 said:
    The staff said no, that's why.

    Yeah well, there goes my subscription then. If that's your way of responding, I'm sorry for ever giving you money.
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    • dankine said...
    • Subscriber
    • 6 Nov 2007, 12:10
    Llan said:
    I want to use gnump3d to stream music from my desktop PC e.g. to my laptop in the next room. If I do this, I can't scrobble the tracks, which is not understandable.
    I'm rehashing previous posts, but the argument "You can't rely on a radio station for correct tags" is useless. You can't rely on user-submitted tagging as well. I often find errors in the tags of ripped CDs. And besides that, I can just retag every song I have and submit it any way I want.

    surely you have a lan? just share the music file across the network, play and scrobble. very very simple.

    There really really is no point why radio streams with tags should not be submittable.

    Apart from the ones given very calmly in this thread which people keep refusing to read and take in.
    'Maybe living and dying are the same thing, maybe the fact that we turn them into two different things is why we feel so lost.'
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  • jimapore: A poll won't work it's a buisness not a democracy. But ThomasVeil has the right idea, let people know what you want although it should be done in the feedback forum where it belongs ;).

    However this is brought up alot and the Staff has even replied that they want to do it eventually (along with scrobbling from many other music sources). The problem is that it takes time to find an acceptable way to do it so we just keep waiting.

    And Llan, you're not giving me money. I'm a user like you only I volunteer to answer questions that are asked on a daily basis over and over and over again.

    You may not want to hear it and throw a tantrum instead but what I told you is the truth.

    The staff has said that they will not scrobble internet radio at this time. Luckily like I said two times in this thread already they do like the idea and may find a reasonable way to do it in the future. If you can't accept that I'm sorry, feel free to go hold your breath in the corner while the rest of us go on enjoying and building upon what options we do have available to us.
    All comments reflect the views of the poster and not of last.fm or it's management.

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  • There really really is no point why radio streams with tags should not be submittable.


    Apart from the ones given very calmly in this thread which people keep refusing to read and take in.


    I've read them, and they would make sense to me except for the one main hole in logic that last.fm doesn't seem to be "reading and taking in":

    If radio tags are unreliable and only pure data is accepted - why allow users to submit tags such as "Track 01"?

    What this results in, is last.fm claiming to not implement something users keep asking for in the hopes of keeping data clean. However they simultaneously acknowledge the data they are already getting is not clean, PLUS that it's not an issue to last.fm. This is what was explicitly stated above in reference to users who *already* report bum tags:
    I myself wouldn't want that... If only because it screws my recommendations. But that is a choice by that user. Their tags are crap and they choose not to correct them.

    This is the perfect example of a double standard. So what we're left with is this:

    1) Users who will report bum tags ALREADY do so WITHOUT the radio implementation.

    2) Users who CARE about tags and want them reported from radio are given the shaft.

    Show me how I'm wrong and I'll probably be happier. My guess is that either last.fm just doesn't want to do this, in which case they should just say so, or there is another reason that is not stated here (or has not been *clearly* stated here).

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    • Llan said...
    • User
    • 7 Nov 2007, 11:53
    "Maybe in the future" is not good enough. Far away from it, actually.
    There are things that don't work that should have been "working soon" for over two years, so "maybe in the future" sounds like 2020.

    But nevermind, I've lost interest in last.fm.
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    • dankine said...
    • Subscriber
    • 7 Nov 2007, 11:55
    nateswart said:
    If radio tags are unreliable and only pure data is accepted - why allow users to submit tags such as "Track 01"?

    they don't. might I suggest you (find and) check the list of blocked submissions. stuff like [untitled] track1 etc are not allowed.
    'Maybe living and dying are the same thing, maybe the fact that we turn them into two different things is why we feel so lost.'
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  • dankine - that starts to make things make a little more sense, thank you. I have to wonder why a Global Moderator (Jester-NL) claims differently though.
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  • I'm in agreement with rstcyr and nateswart

    rstcyr said:
    "...80% of my PC listening is to online stations, which at the moment will not show on "What I'm listening to". Not much of a point for me to use last.fm, then..."

    I listen to a couple streaming radio stations most of the day (Ron Paul Radio and DI.fm) and they never register on my charts. It would be so nice if they did because both encompass my two favorite genres: politics and dance music. I don't understand/agree with the logic of disabling this format of audio.

    So in case any of the last.fm head honchos read this, I def. vote in favor of scrobbling streaming internet stations.
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  • nateswart said:
    Has anyone ever looked at CDDB? I bet most people rely on it for auto-tagging their imported CDs. It is not 100%, and often has multiple entries for a single album. People not paying close attention will have errors creeping in, again not 100%, yet that is acceptable.

    Gracenote (CDDB) is far from accurate. It gets some things right. Though when I have used the Winamp auto-tagger (Powered by Gracenote), it renamed the artist as "Various Artist," something that I know last.fm just doesn't like yet I honestly don't know who recorded some of the songs that I have.

    Nobody's tags are ever going to be 100% accurate.

    Passion just doesn't happen, you make it grow.
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